| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Varius Xeral
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.12.19 21:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
People easily forget that all of this balancing discussion is fundamentally about the utterly gutted day-to-day gameplay throughout this game. Nullsec is currently running on a one to two year cycle of noob->cap pilot->eve end credits as you learn the game, lose or win a couple of wars, and then unsub because you've "seen it all". The worst part is that even this content is getting stale as the skills to null warfare become refined and the process routinized. This game desperately needs strong day-to-day, low maintenance, and accessible content to keep people interested, playing, and in space. The more people you have doing this, the more content there then is for everyone else in an exponentially progressing ladder.
Things like making non-hisec industry viable are super easy fixes that dump a shitton of content-generating activities into nullsec and lowsec. Nobody cares about pushing anyone anywhere; what matters is content for people where they already are, to make the most of the space they have. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2012.12.20 00:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Why is being in a player corp so important compared to other factors here?
Because an NPC corp can't be wardecked.
Forcing people to have a flag, plant a flag, and defend that flag if they want to access higher end gameplay (upper level industry) is a big part of content creation. It's the exact same problem with having no consequences to just safing up or running away in nullsec when reds come in your space. There need to be risks inherent in accessing higher end gameplay, and the greater the thing you want to build, the more people should be able to try and tear it down.
Right now you can build absolutely and absurdly enormous industrial chains all in the safety of hisec stations and with the anonymity of npc corps, which is utterly and completely broken, and against the very core of Eve gameplay as envisioned by the founders.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2012.12.20 00:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm discussing why, generally, NPC corp membership matters in terms of accessing higher level gameplay. The fact that unlimited perfect refining is accessible in NPC stations by NPC corps is just another example of being able to access high end gameplay with no need to open yourself to risks or plant and defend a flag. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2012.12.20 00:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
As far as I'm aware, that is not what most people are asking for, and definitely not what I personally am suggesting.
What I and, I believe, others are suggesting is making nullsec and lowsec viable with hisec as a place to do industry.
Just limiting t2 to nullsec is fixing an engine with a sledgehammer, and completely ignores an even more content starved lowsec. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2012.12.20 00:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Precisely, so hisec industry is currently one of the most glaring imbalances in the game. I'm glad we agree. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2012.12.20 00:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
I apologize; I'm being cheeky while you've been eminently reasonable the entire time.
If the concern of people reading this, vested interests or not, is that proposed fixes sound dangerously short-sighted and incomplete, then I agree completely. That is often the problem with threads like this, and why I prefer to stay on the side of fundamental gameplay and away from specific mechanics.
I strongly believe that anything done in this area should be part of a comprehensive revamp, and would, as in almost every case, rather CCP do nothing than do something rushed and as a half-measure.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
5
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Posted - 2012.12.20 07:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Welcme to eve-o gd, bro. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
6
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Posted - 2012.12.20 08:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Salpad wrote:An improvement of the game balance, so that the attacker isn't massively favoured relative to the victim, would make it less intimidating to visit low-sec and null-sec.
The attacker has as much advantage as he gives himself, just as much the victim has disadvantaged himself.
Taking a wild stab here, none of what is discussed here has to do with new players first exploring low/null on their own. That is a new player experience issue, and an important one, but utterly irrelevant to discussions of fundamental gameplay mechanics. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
11
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Posted - 2012.12.20 15:13:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:This is quite incorrect if you take size into consideration.
I forgot that ships and group sizes, whichever you are referring too, are fixed.
Excellent point. Thanks for that incisive contribution.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
31
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Posted - 2012.12.21 01:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Level 4s and massive industrial chains are all about protecting the newbies.
Got it. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
31
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Posted - 2012.12.21 01:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Some people never find a group they fit in with. They should just quit early and save you the trouble of having to deal with them?
Wait, I thought we were saving new players?
Now we're saving players who need solo content in an MMO AND need that content to be competitive with group content?
Just let us know when the goalposts are gonna stop so we can begin then. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
37
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Posted - 2012.12.21 16:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dunked on.
Saved me some typing.
Hisec was meant to be a casual alternative for casual players, not a casual alternative for multi-accounting turbonerds. If anything, reducing the competitiveness of hisec content is a boon to actual casual players, as their favorite content isn't being dominated by the alts of the all-but-casual players currently gobbling content made for them.
No one has yet explained why content aimed at casual players needs competitive rewards. The whole point is that they don't give a ****, and are just on to tool around a bit. Somehow "casual" has been co-opted by grinding farmers plexing multiple accounts. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
41
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Posted - 2012.12.21 17:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
As usual a wall of mostly incoherent and barely tangential text.
As to the original vision of Eve, I looked it up. I suggest you go do the same.
As to the rest...can't really respond as your post is basically non-responsive to mine.
I know you think you're an effective advocate for whatever exactly it is you think you're advocating for, but I assure you that you are not. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
53
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Posted - 2012.12.22 18:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
Marlona Sky wrote:And letting one neutral stop your entire bearing operation is you own fault.
Holy ******* ****, I just plus repped a marlona sky post.
I feel dirty...and my world no longer makes sense.
I am going to go drink wine, and then likely end up crying in the shower fully clothed. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
55
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Posted - 2012.12.22 23:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
Hisec indy alts of nullsec players aren't "hisec players" of their own, they're just alts. That's the whole point.
Really though, arguments based on obtuseness and pedantry are really powerful...and the ridiculous hyperbole only helps. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
55
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Posted - 2012.12.22 23:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Now I find your attempt at forming a coherent argument ridiculous as well.
What do you have next? |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
62
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Posted - 2012.12.23 17:42:00 -
[17] - Quote
Another point worth making very clear is that this farms and fields talk originally came right from the top of Nullsec from content-creators warning CCP that their ability and willingness to create content for the average player is drying up. You can only whip people up for another "War for the Fatherland" so many times before it gets stale, and they just don't bother logging in for the next one. Nullsec has been running strictly on its own novelty since being populated enough to actually be fought over.
Farms and fields is a warning that nullsec, and lowsec as well actually, need more substantive day to day gameplay to create content and reinvigorate the sense of meaning to warfare in both areas. Nullsec and to a lesser extent lowsec gameplay is about planting a flag and defending that flag against all comers. This meaningful group play creates a story or narrative that brings Eve's objectively boring gameplay to life, and pushes people to log in and interact.
Farms and fields is a natural improvement to Eve gameplay based on the lessons learned from its existence over ten years. If you were to create Eve 2, the first thing you would do is ensure scalable farms and fields gameplay from hisec through lowsec and on to null. Creating meaningful day to day gameplay in nullsec and lowsec is a necessity, and it will happen regardless of whining from a tiny vocal minority of players who think they should have easy access to almost all rewards in the almost perfect safety of hisec.
Winter is coming. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
63
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Posted - 2012.12.23 18:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
No, no. He doesn't care about isk/hour, so he's not going to care when hisec income gets nerfed. Problem solved. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
63
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Posted - 2012.12.23 20:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Makavi Astro wrote:
Anyway nulsec for me was always the arena, place where you fight people.
And highsec was the home.
Precisely. This is the fundamentally broken gameplay feature that goes complete against what Eve is supposed to be. Eve is specifically not an arena game and was never intended to be. The fact that so many people perceive it as such demonstrates how severe the need to reformulate the very guts of gameplay is.
Although your conclusion is dead wrong, your observation is dead right. Thanks for your input.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
63
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Posted - 2012.12.23 21:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Please waffle more. You've been an enormous addition to the discourse with your complete lack of consistency. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
95
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Posted - 2012.12.23 22:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
The reason WHs don't get mentioned in these threads is because they are alien to most of us, and they have their own effective lobby to look out for their interests. Furthermore, any pos revamp, which is part of an industry revamp, would nececessarily have input from WHers about pos and industry in WHs. It is far from a condemnation that we try not to speak for WHers, rather it is a point our "side" should be congratulated for. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
109
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Posted - 2012.12.23 23:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Buffing / revamping POSes is not a point to your "side", it's an ancient, "dead horse" (including AGES old threads titled with "flogging the dead horse" and similar) from the whole community since well before you ever emerged as prominent alliance.
Non responsive as usual. You would be a far more effective communicator if you actually read what you were attempting to respond to instead of just hammering through spam responses to everything in a thread. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
109
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Posted - 2012.12.23 23:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
Seriously. Take a deep breath, go back to the start of the chain. You are literally not responding to what you quoted, at all. You have utterly misunderstood the post you quoted. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
109
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Posted - 2012.12.23 23:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
I should add that I am in no way affiliated with GS or any allied entity. I currently play strictly in hisec, further focused only on market and industrial play. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
109
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Posted - 2012.12.23 23:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
The side that can see past childish divides and understands what needs to be done across the game as a whole for the game as a whole.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
109
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Posted - 2012.12.23 23:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Excellent post.
Generally what most of us are arguing for is a gameplay reform. However, we understand that no gameplay reform will be enough if the relative reward in hisec, the base level reward for the game, remains too high.
A change in gameplay should go hand-in-hand with a balancing of rewards, as neither on its own will have much of a positive impact. In fact, I strongly believe that farms and fields type gameplay should scale right through into hisec, and if this gameplay reform is done properly, the balancing of rewards will go almost completely unnoticed.
Again, thank you for an excellent post. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
111
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Posted - 2012.12.24 02:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
rofl
you aren't facilitating any higher order of play by buying and selling stuff on the market
VV's examples of what he does are valid, though I would classify him as the exception that proves the rule |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
112
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Posted - 2012.12.24 03:13:00 -
[28] - Quote
The whole point is that there is a class of people that take it beyond the canned gameplay for everyone else. Some nullbear f1ing through fleets is no more significant than someone moving stuff around in hisec markets, I agree. However, the people who do create content for others generally tend not to do it in hisec, whether they do it in lowsec, WHs, or nullsec is unimportant.
This discussion really hits to the core of the issue in this thread, which is the call for a reinvigorating of the tools for content creation. If there was a bigger audience, I would be all for more market or contract functionality to facilitate the kind of gameplay VV creates. Unfortunately, that audience seems to be a slice of a slice of what could be reached with better lowsec and nullsec content, so I think that should be where the effort is currently concentrated. That said, I would never rule out a financial expansion down the road when much more important issues have been addressed; who knows how popular that might actually end up being when not contesting with a broken nullsec and a stillborn lowsec. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
113
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Posted - 2012.12.24 04:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:A 160-man high-sec mining corp engaging in daily 40-50 ship mining ops, without firing a single weapon, generates plenty of pgc. Irrespective of what sec it is found in, cooperation needs to be rewarded and the quality of pgc isn't dependent upon the size or purpose of the ships being flown. Imo, creation of "content" is derived from player interaction, not location.
I would absolutely agree, if such a thing actually existed.
Strictly as a hypothetical, if the other security spaces ended up being utter failures due to some inherent gameplay flaw, I would be absolutely happy with a strictly hisec eve, if that gameplay was competitive and interactive. My fantasy for a nullsec revamp actually includes lowsec and hisec with the introduction of qualified farms and fields throughout the game as the baseline gameplay, where the more you as a collective grind space, the more that space is yours and the greater the benefits and control, qualified by the system security.
As it stands, the utter security of hisec leads to canned solo gameplay, where something of any significance rarely happens.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
115
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Posted - 2012.12.24 04:30:00 -
[30] - Quote
I would add that a general absolute drop in power accessibility wouldn't be a bad thing. We aren't far off the height of incursions where everyone was throwing around t3 fleets, and BCs and below were effectively classed out of the game. That was almost a game-breaking peak of power creep, and we still aren't that far below that point. I wouldn't consider it a bad thing if the day to day pvp moved down from t2/pirate/t3, and the only time you saw a full t3 fleet was coming out of a WH (those guys deserve everything they get). The sky is afalling argument is really weak because a little tumble would generally do the game some good, especially now that the low end t1 ships are so ******* awesome. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
115
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Posted - 2012.12.24 04:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Yonis Kador wrote:Varius Xeral wrote:Yonis Kador wrote:A 160-man high-sec mining corp ... generates plenty of pgc. I would absolutely agree, if such a thing actually existed. They do exist. One just popped up in my region 2 jumps from low sec. Flying around, I see lots of 30-40-50 man mining corps, but not many that large. But they certainly exist. I'm not advocating for a high-sec EvE. Or even a safe EvE. (In fact I'd argue against both.) I'm just saying that those players do contribute to pgc and that pgc doesn't only occur in null. We are all just looking at interfaces pushing buttons. The kind of buttons matters far less than the fact that they're being pushed in a group.
You snipped the important part about 50 man mining gangs, but whatever. The point is hisec gameplay does not lead to interaction or elaboration because it is so safe. It leads to mindless canned grinding, and multi-boxing in lieu of cooperation (why share when you don't need your "partners" to be fully functional human beings?)
Your main point that fifty man (not account) mining gangs create content is absolutely and completely valid and correct. That's what we all want; and I personally don't give a **** where it happens, I just don't believe that hisec currently lends to that or rewards it. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
115
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Posted - 2012.12.24 04:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
You're suggesting it happens on a significant scale, I'm suggesting it doesn't. I won't get into an anecdotal or poor evidence flinging contest, so I welcome you to put out convincing evidence, which I will admit I don't have, or agree to disagree. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
116
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Posted - 2012.12.24 05:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Then you should try reading the threads you're supposedly responding to. Right now the vast majority of industry is totally canned and creates no greater content beyond itself. By making it rewarding to do industry where people want to live and forcing chains to open themselves up to disruption or attack if they want to be competitive, the current mundane production of goods becomes a source of content. Your suggestion that the biggest risk in industry is that people might sell at below the cost to produce is the most blatant proof of its utter dysfunction one could ask for.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
116
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Posted - 2012.12.24 05:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tesal wrote:Give in to your hatred, strike me down with all of your force.
In an age of jump freighters and giant blue blobs, do you honestly believe supply lines would be open to attack? I don't.
You're really stretching now.
Hand in hand with an industry revamp is a pos revamp, where a ton of industry will be done in space in easy to use, highly scalable, and modular pos that are vulnerable to even small gangs.
See, this discussion is already so far beyond you, you're lucky we're bothering to keep you informed.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
132
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Posted - 2012.12.24 09:10:00 -
[35] - Quote
Your confusion arises from your inexplicable need to spazz around a thread picking different quotes at seeming random instead of attempting to find a narrative in what people are saying that inform the contexts of each quote you pick.
I am not actually writing this response for your sake, as you will just chop it up and barf out 4 or 5 nonresponsive and somewhat to completely spastic comments that will in no way further any form of discourse as known by man. However, other people read this, so I will take the opportunity to further clarify these points for them.
The complaint is that nullsec is lacking the guts of day to day gameplay that facilitates content creation, the gameplay that gets people logging in, in space, and interacting. This core gameplay is what is then used by leaders to create higher order content. Nullsec has so far survived just because the experience was novel, so it was easier for content-creators to create a narrative for their people. Now the same old story is getting tired, and they need the gaping holes in gameplay to be filled.
Hisec, on the other hand, is lacking the freedom of action to take the abundant lowlevel canned gameplay and create something greater out of it. This is because people have no need whatsoever to plant a flag of any sort, so there is no way to create content over the attack or defense of property there, as no property is actually vulnerable.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
137
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Posted - 2012.12.24 16:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:A "high sec" nerf is brewing, they see it, and they're worried about.
That's why I enjoy these threads so much. Some of us are discussing more or less what's going to happen and our own opinions on it, while the rest are running around screaming under the delusion that they have some ability to stop it.
Winter is coming. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
166
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Posted - 2012.12.26 19:18:00 -
[37] - Quote
Like npc nullsec or lowsec, where most invasions actually base from, even ones between neighboring established sov holders.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
166
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Posted - 2012.12.26 19:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ignoring the mechanics that would or could bring it about and focusing only on the result of much t2 manufacturing moving to lowsec, this would be an unqualified "good thing" even from the perspective of most nullsec players. The only place more starved for basic canned content than nullsec is lowsec. I can't imagine most nullsec players begrudging lowsec being tossed a bone more than once every five years. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
166
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Posted - 2012.12.26 19:29:00 -
[39] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:There's a vast difference between a staging area and a resource collection area, and if what you are saying is true from a resource collection standpoint then highsec is obviously fairly balanced with NPC null and lowsec, so no problem.
Your posting is literally nonsense.
It's cute how you think you're part of the actual conversation that actually knowledgeable people are having. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
172
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Posted - 2012.12.26 20:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tesal wrote:The profits in empire aren't that great from industry. Many items sell at a loss at major hubs.
This isn't a point in your favor. This means that hisec industry is so easy that people pay for the privilege of doing it.
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
180
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Posted - 2012.12.26 21:13:00 -
[41] - Quote
If the almost entirety of industry wasn't done in the near-perfect safety of npc corps and hisec stations, the returns to all industry would grow enormously. Furthermore, if pos and security statuses were given appropriate bonuses, those returns could scale to account for added risk.
Right now the returns to industry are near or even below a big fat zero almost entirely across the board because it is so utterly borked. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
181
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Posted - 2012.12.26 21:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
I must say, I wish people had started to push this industry issue a long time ago. It never crossed my mind how borked it was until people pointed it out. Furthermore, the hisec indy tears are a delicious torrent, and will only be better when the hammer actually falls. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
183
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Posted - 2012.12.26 21:28:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ya, the "I want to plex my four accounts AFK in hisec" lobby.
A thousand tears for their travails. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
203
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Posted - 2012.12.27 16:02:00 -
[44] - Quote
Let's not forget the ridiculous pulled-from-butt "lore" arguments.
I'm pretty sure this guy is a goon plant to make hisec whiners look even more ********.
The other possibilities are too horrifying to imagine. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
205
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Posted - 2012.12.27 17:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Since nobody can dispute my case, they are resorting to insulting me on NPC corp alts.
I think that means I've won the thread.
You mean your literally 20th different grasping at straws argument?
You lost all credibility 30 pages ago.
Now you're just a sideshow. |
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